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supported_devices:432_warning [2018/03/03 20:21] – ↷ Links adapted because of a move operation supported_devices:432_warning [2021/11/29 01:38] – [Warning about 4/32 devices] richb-hanover
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-====== 4/32 warning ======+====== Warning about 4/32 devices ======
 ~~NOTOC~~ ~~NOTOC~~
  
-Every operating system requires +<WRAP round info 100%> 
-  Sufficient Flash to accommodate firmware image+**TL;DR Devices with ≤4MB flash and/or ≤32MB RAM (so-called "4/32 devices") may still work but they will be very limited (usually they can't install or run additional packages) because they have low RAM and Flash space.** Consider this when choosing a device to buy, or when deciding to flash OpenWrt on your device because it is listed as supported. 
 +</WRAP> 
 + 
 +Default builds of OpenWrt 21.02 can only run on 8/64 devices. We **recommend 16/128 devices.** Every operating system requires:
   - Sufficient RAM for stable operation   - Sufficient RAM for stable operation
 +  - Sufficient Flash to accommodate the firmware image
  
-{{section>meta:infobox:432_warning#infobox_for_tohs&noheader&nofooter&noeditbutton}} +===== Low RAM can lead to instability =====
- +
-===== Usability ===== +
- +
-**Insufficient RAM for stable operation**+
  
-  * 32MB minimum; can work quite well, but can also be borderline, depending on your usecase. +  * 32 MB can barely work for minimal router/AP functions, but may repeatedly "crash", depending on your hardware and use case 
-  * 64MB are more comfortable to work with, and in general the better choice.+  * 64 MB may still have issues with stabilitydepending on your hardware and use cases 
 +  * 128 MB or more is recommended (in 2021) if software past basic router/AP functionality is to be used
  
-===== Extensibility =====+===== Low Flash can't load new firmware or new packages =====
  
-**Barely enough Flash to accommodate LEDE firmware image** +  * 4MB is absolute minimum (but you won't be able to install LuCI web interface) / 8MB is barely enough (will fit LuCI and some other applications) / 16MB offers more flexibility 
- +  * 4MB devices can't fit anything noteworthy unless you use [[docs:guide-user:additional-software:imagebuilder|the Image Generator (Image Builder)]] (that requires a Linux system and some mild experience) or use [[docs:guide-user:additional-software:extroot_configuration|Extroot]]. Experienced users creating custom builds may be able to [[docs:guide-user:additional-software:saving_space|Saving firmware space]], but many packages won't ever fit no matter what you do
-  * 4MB min (won't be able to install luci) / 8MB better (will fit luci and some other applications) +  * 8MB (or more) of Flash lets install at least a few additional software packages,  
-  * 4MB can work, but are no fun to work with. >4MB will make you happier than 4MB or below. +  * 16MB Flash (minimum) is recommended for the foreseeable future (in 2021)
-  * 4MB devices can't fit anything noteworthy unless you use [[docs:guide-user:additional-software:imagebuilder|the Image Generator (Image Builder)]] (that requires a Linux system and some mild experience) or use [[docs:guide-user:additional-software:extroot_configuration|Extroot]]. Experienced users deploying specific or custom builds may not be affected by these restrictions; novices however will likely waste hours only to see that their expectations of an extensible operating system which LEDE claims to be can not be met by their device+
-  * Especially in regards to extensibility, the advice can only be: 8MB (or more) are the better choice. +
- +
- +
-Devices with only 4MB Flash memory will barely be able to hold the LEDE firmware image, and will have limitations in their extensibility. With low flash, do not expect too much in this regard.+
  
 Most probably, you will not be able to install the following popular packages (and others) on a device with only 4MB flash: Most probably, you will not be able to install the following popular packages (and others) on a device with only 4MB flash:
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   * filesystem drivers/tools for formatting and checking a filesystem for [[docs:guide-user:additional-software:extroot_configuration|Extroot]]   * filesystem drivers/tools for formatting and checking a filesystem for [[docs:guide-user:additional-software:extroot_configuration|Extroot]]
  
 +As the current stable 21.02 release uses kernel 5.4 that is roughly 0.5 MB larger than the kernel 4.14 used in the old 19.07.x releases, and SSL/HTTPS has been enabled by default needing at least some 0.3 MB flash space for the SSL libraries, the free flash space available on 8MB flash systems will be rather small in the current OpenWrt 21.02 release. OpenWrt master has already partially moved to kernel 5.10, which is still larger.
  
-===== Supportability =====+===== Supportability issues =====
  
-It is getting harder or even impossible over time to support devices with low Flash + RAM. +It is getting harder or even impossible over time to support devices with low Flash + RAM. You will be less likely to find people willing to assist on the forums. 
-LEDE support for those devices might end somewhere in the future.+ 
 +The 32 MB RAM is harder limitation than the flash size. The current Linux 5.4 barely works with a 32 MB RAM system and spikes in memory consumption can easily crash the router with OOM (Out-of-Memory) errors. 
 + 
 +**OpenWrt support for those devices will end with the 19.07 release**, ie. 19.07 will be the last release with support for 4/32 MB devices. There will be no future releases and no images ready for download after 19.07.
  
  
 ===== Advice ===== ===== Advice =====
  
-  * **new users** knowing what they want (or not), not knowing what they need, not knowing what to do -> get 8/64 +If you are not an expert user of OpenWrt (that isif you do not build your own images)you should consider 
-  * **experienced users** knowing what they want, need, and do -> try if 4/32 suits your needs; if notget 8/64+
  
-===== An analysis of the issue done by forum user slh ===== +**16/64 as an //absolute// minimum for any device, with at least 128 MB of RAM being preferred.**   
-As written in [[https://forum.lede-project.org/t/should-lede-support-devices-with-only-4mb-flash/1018/71| this forum post ]] by forum user **slh**.+ 
 +If a device has less than 16 MB of Flash and/or less than 64 MB of RAM, it may be unstable in basic operation under current versions of OpenWrt (21.02, 19.07). Further expect that support for the device may be dropped at any time and that security patches/updates to the kernel, drivers, and/or application software will not be available. While there is no warranty of ongoing support for any device under OpenWrt, those with insufficient resources are at great risk for "end of support"
 + 
 +Previous versions of OpenWrt (such as earlier versions of 18.06.x, 17.01.x, 15.05.x "Chaos Calmer" and prior) contain now-known security vulnerabilities in the kernel, wireless implementation, and/or application code. The OpenWrt community cannot support running known-vulnerable code under any situation. "It's just my router" is not justification as your router becoming compromised can impact others as a jump-point, command-and-control, or other participant in an attack. In many cases, these known vulnerabilities are being actively targeted, potentially including by [[https://blog.talosintelligence.com/2018/05/VPNFilter.html|advanced, likely state-sponsored or state-affiliated actor]] or actors. 
 + 
 + 
 +===== Analysis of firmware size growth ===== 
 + 
 +As example, the size of the sysupgrade release image for WNDR3700v1, an ar71xx/ath79 device that has been supported by Openwrt for ten years: 
 + 
 +<code> 
 +master:        5056.3 KB (snapshot without LuCI) 
 +21.02.0:       5248.1 KB 
 +19.07.8:       4096.3 KB 
 +18.06.8:       3712.0 KB 
 +17.01.7:       3584.0 KB 
 +15.05.1:       3584.0 KB 
 +14.07:         3328.0 KB 
 +12.09:         2816.0 KB 
 +</code> 
 + 
 +Main reason is growth in size of the Linux kernel itself, but all included core packages (wifi, LuCI, etc.) also tend to grow as their features get expanded. 
 + 
 +==== Longer analysis of the issue done by forum user slh ==== 
 + 
 +As written in [[https://forum.openwrt.org/t/should-lede-support-devices-with-only-4mb-flash/1018/71| this forum post ]] by forum user **slh**.
  
 First of all, I'm not pretending to speak for the LEDE team, however looking at the plain numbers presents a quite obvious situation. First of all, I'm not pretending to speak for the LEDE team, however looking at the plain numbers presents a quite obvious situation.
  
-Taking "[[https://forum.lede-project.org/t/solved-why-no-images-generated-for-default-d-link-dir-600a1/990| Why no images generated for default D-Link DIR-600A1?]]" as an example (yes, some other 4 MB flash devices are a bit better than this particular specimen, the trend remains to be the same though).+Taking "[[https://forum.openwrt.org/t/solved-why-no-images-generated-for-default-d-link-dir-600a1/990| Why no images generated for default D-Link DIR-600A1?]]" as an example (yes, some other 4 MB flash devices are a bit better than this particular specimen, the trend remains to be the same though).
  
 <code>D-Link DIR-600A1: <code>D-Link DIR-600A1:
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 [4] I would expect that there already are a couple of 4 MB flash devices in the target list for which no release firmware can be built for 17.01, because of less ideal flash partitioning schemes chosen by the vendor (dropping free space below 3 erase blocks). Those are probably a minority, but given the close numbers, I'd be very suprised if there wouldn't be any affected. [4] I would expect that there already are a couple of 4 MB flash devices in the target list for which no release firmware can be built for 17.01, because of less ideal flash partitioning schemes chosen by the vendor (dropping free space below 3 erase blocks). Those are probably a minority, but given the close numbers, I'd be very suprised if there wouldn't be any affected.
  
-[[https://forum.lede-project.org/t/lede-a-bit-over-the-top-with-the-minimal-requirements/2009/4?u=tmomas|More explanations]] on this subject by forum user **slh**.+[[https://forum.openwrt.org/t/lede-a-bit-over-the-top-with-the-minimal-requirements/2009/4?u=tmomas|More explanations]] on this subject by forum user **slh**. 
 ===== The opinion of a Core LEDE developer ===== ===== The opinion of a Core LEDE developer =====
-As originally written in [[https://forum.lede-project.org/t/should-lede-support-devices-with-only-4mb-flash/1018/79|this forum post]] by jow.+As originally written in [[https://forum.openwrt.org/t/should-lede-support-devices-with-only-4mb-flash/1018/79|this forum post]] by jow.
  
 Just providing my rather pragmatic opinion on the topic here:\\ Just providing my rather pragmatic opinion on the topic here:\\
  • Last modified: 2023/05/03 18:08
  • by tmomas